It probably doesn't need to be said here, but if you haven't read Dune, stop what you're doing and read Dune. If like me you enjoyed the idea of LoTR but found the writing irritating, you're going to bloody love Dune.
Don't worry too much about the many sequels, they can get a bit too weird. The first book stands alone just fine.
Don't worry too much about the many sequels, they can get a bit too weird. The first book stands alone just fine.
True, but if you decide to read the sequels, only read the Frank Herbert sequels. The Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels are more like poor fanfiction than sequels.
> The Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels are more like poor fanfiction than sequels.
Thank you. I read one book by Brian H. and every chapter filled me with rage, for destroying the magic of one of my most loved books.
One of the most enjoyable things about Dune is that all factions/entities have shades of grey and plans within their plan. The way Brian H. books change them to a linear story and put entities in a black/white divide is infuriating.
Very few authors can break my concentration, snap me out of the story and make me think "oh, that was cheap..." like the the Herbert/Anderson collaboration.
I haven't read their _sequels_, but I have read their _prequels_ before reading the original dune and I found them decent. Not exceptional, but not bad at all. Slightly different from the original, though, which might be why they are off-putting to many people who have read Dune first.
I do not mind their books too much, the stories were interesting and some of the explanation given for various technologies was fine.
The Tleilaxu background was good, however the fault I give the son's work is far too often he would try to out do dad, as in one up the ability of the foes faced. Still I liked the Titans and found the idea of how Mentats originated was valid; whom else but a computer could train them?
My stock recommendation is: The first book is a classic for a reason. However, if you don't like it, stop here. The subsequent books will not change your opinion. In fact Herbert may really not be your thing. (He has a certain unique feel to his writing, I think.)
The rest of the first trilogy is definitely more hurried and rather than "justifiably classic" are merely pretty OK if you like that sort of thing. A lot of people jam up here.
God Emperor of Dune is one of those books that is more fun to read the second time than the first, because the first time you really want the primary plot line to finish up and it feels like it is dragging. It really isn't, the rest of the content is quite worthy and the book would be made worse for removing it, but the first time through it doesn't feel that way. I like it better on re-reads, but this is a lot to ask of a reader. (Another one I feel this way is A Deepness in the Sky by Vinge. It's packed with goodness and I love it, but in the first read the middle half of the book can really drag since the goodness isn't in the "A plot".)
Finally, if you make it this far, Chapterhouse and Heretics are once again quite fun reads and re-reads. But it can be hard to get this far in the first place.
My suspicion is that a lot of people who blanket bemoan all the sequels never made it as far as Chapterhouse Dune. But then, it's perfectly understandable.
Oh, and I'll edit this to include my video recommendations: The classic Dune movie should be considered only loosely related, IMHO. The Sci-Fi (before it was "SyFy") miniseries of the book is good if you've already read the book and you view it as a filmed theatrical production rather than a "movie". Which, IMHO, actually works, as theatrical tropes are a better medium for Dune than conventional movie tropes in a lot of ways, but if you don't know what you're getting in to can be a shock. The miniseries of the second two books is better produced, but IIRC still requires you to have read the story first to really understand it. I definitely don't recommend them as your intro to the series.
Like the comment below, I prefer God Emperor of Dune to Dune. In the first book, the universe is not specced out, the characters don't have enough backstory.
By the later books, you start feeling the expanse of the universe, the incredible loneliness the universes most powerful entity must endure until the golden path is secure.
It was rendered non-canonical by either God Emperor or Chapterhouse, but it's full of interesting stuff if you're the sort that can get stuck on a Wiki-walk. This is probably the most monetarily valuable book in my meager collection, picked up without knowledge of its rarity from a library book sale.
> Finally, if you make it this far, Chapterhouse and Heretics are once again quite fun reads and re-reads. But it can be hard to get this far in the first place.
I loved reading Heretics just a few weeks ago. It is definitely my second favorite book in the saga (the first one obviously being Dune). What I liked so much about it is that there's suddenly a change in setting: more technology, cities, etc. The characters are also great - Teg is by far my favorite character in the whole saga.
Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune really drag the story and it was hard getting past them on the first read, but the second time you read them - especially God Emperor - you see how packed with insights those books are.
Chapterhouse was ok, but that cliffhanger at the end...
I actually find that God Emperor of Dune was my favorite, not Dune itself. I don't recall whether it was Chapterhouse or Heretics, but the scene with the Bene Gesserit in the cave has stood out in my mind for years.
Really, the writing style is the same, and there's a lot of "idea" content in the sequels, especially God Emperor. I really don't feel the Dune universe is any different - but the events of Dune did change the (known) universe, and thousands of years have passed by the time of Chapterhouse.
I would agree that nobody should touch the Brian Herbert books, though.
_God Emperor of Dune_ has the best opening sequence of any book I have read (the wolves chasing the raiders in the forbidden forest), love it!
You really have to read that far to get a sense of how important the Duncan Idaho character is in the Dune universe: in the first book he is just a bit player, but later he becomes central.
I've read the first six. Rereading, I stopped at God Emperor.
I tell people who are thinking about reading it that if they found Dune to be slow and difficult that they should just stop at the first one. It's a lot of world building and politics as it goes on.
I agree. The best part of the series in my opinion, is the political machination. God Emperor probably has the most of that. Messiah is probably the weakest novel in the set in my opinion.
I really liked God Emperor of Dune, and consider it to be the logical ending point of the series. Heretics and Chapterhouse are a very interesting continuation, but feel more like the beginning of a new series based in the same universe (and an incomplete one, at that).
I liked the later books a lot, the plots and story are sometimes very very weird, but the quotes and philosophy are really pretty darn amazing.
All the Frank Herbert sequels are worth reading for those alone, but it took me some effort to get through books 2 and 3. It gets better (but weirder) later in terms of quotes/philosophy/randomness. Plot not so much on occasion, quotes? Very very interesting.
the legends of dune trilogy were the only good dune books. the reset were drivel in my opinion. that said, i did read them all, so they can't have been that bad, but i did spend most of the time waiting for the robots to come back. which they don't do :(
The original is an absolute classic, but the first sequel, Dune Messiah is probably also worth reading - without it, you don't really get a good picture of what Herbert has to say about the hero's journey.
This dialogue with my son made me proud of my parenting:
Me: "Godfather I?"
He: "One of the greatest movies of all time."
Me: "Godfather II?"
He: "Transcendental. The rare sequel better than the original."
Me: "Godfather III?"
He: "Never happened. An elaborate hoax."
Highlander was a fine guy film that ended with total closure. Highlander 2: The Sicken...(er, 'scuse me)...Quickening totally mangled the first story, ignored the closed ending, and carried it on in bizzare ways; the Director's Cut reportedly edits the movie severly, effectively turning it into another film. Highlander 3: The Sorcerer formally apologized for the previous film and discarded it, and said of the first film's ending "no, wait, we apologize, the story isn't finished after all" so they could present some more gratuitous sword fights and beheadings. Then there is Highlander: Endgame which rolls back the story to about 2/3rds through the first film, ignored the other two, picked up the TV series (no comment), and tried to end the first story a fourth way...but it's not done, because of the Hollywood need for a happy ending which makes no sense and opens the door for (retch) a fifth sequel/ending; but that's the Producer's Cut version, which is somewhat different from the theatrical release. This movie, in and of itself, is an OK B-movie; in context of the serieses (plural plural), it's another round of "why are they doing this to me (the viewer)" and six profoundly different endings to one otherwise good story. I suggest you watch the fine cult hit film Highlander, and if anyone suggests you watch any sequels consider following Connor McLeoud's example upon them.
The TV series was decent for it's time. Episodic, but it still had story arcs that crossed episodes and seasons. And didn't always have sword-play and be-headings, so it made you appreciate it when it did (usually to close an arc). Still - you'd think that someone would notice a 6' guy with a 3' long samurai sword stalking around Paris and call the cops...
A shame there were no Highlander sequels in any shape or form.
Imagine if they had decided to be inconsistent and that there were, after all, more immortals after MacLeod won the prize. Or something cheesy like immortals actually being aliens, I dunno. Thankfully this didn't happen in Earth-1, where I live.
When I first read the Dune series in High School, Messiah seemed dreadfully boring - almost enough to quit reading it. After re-reading the series about 15 years later, I was very surprised by how much my opinion of Messiah improved - to the point that it's almost my favorite of the series. It really provides a stark (but satisfying) 3rd act and ending to Paul's story. I almost feel like it's Dune Part 2, rather than a separate novel.
The 5th & 6th make a nice read. They move to new topics such the varieties of biological immortality. Franks long time wife had died and I think he was feeling his end too.
The best part about Dune is that it's really one of those books that reveals different things every time you read it. It should be part of every serious literature course.
I'm sorry, but I have to challenge such a broad statement. The classification of literature is an awful game but Dune is hardly a default candidate for serious study, and I feel a view of literature with it near the top is unfortunately stunted. Just speaking as someone who has taken many of the courses you mention, although not an expert.
It's been a long time since I read the initial trilogy, and i agree the sequels (including Messiah and Children) were not really worth reading (not so much for weirdness as just not being interesting). It seems, however, that the themes Herbert claims drove the book really only come into play in the sequels. The first book is a standard story of revenge and a good, handsome, plucky underdog overcoming the fat, deformed, seethingly evil bad guy against all odds. Where's the heroes are fallible stuff? In the far less compelling sequels.
Herbert wrote the first book as multiple novellas, serialized for publication by Analog. His later novels are much looser, and clearly didn't benefit from the attention he put into making sure the originals would be accepted by the leading science fiction publisher of the time.
I just got around to it a couple months ago after 15 years of meaning to read it. It is still an awesome book. Like Game of Thrones in space with a little bit less incest.
OT, but what do you find irritating in LOTR's writing? too many descriptions? Personally I appreciate Tolkien's style of writing (I read LOTR several times in English which is not my mother tongue).
So I finished reading Dune recently. I did not enjoy it as much as I thought I would. My main problem with it was how predictable it was: gifted kid succeeds in everything he does. A question I have is whether I should read the two immediate sequels. Do they actually explore the whole "superheroes are bad" theme more? Would I get a better sense of the context for what Dune really was about?
My first exposure to the Dune universe was actually the DOS game Dune II, which is funny since it had nothing to do with the storyline. Honestly, I found the game more enjoyable than the book.
> Do they actually explore the whole "superheroes are bad" theme more? Would I get a better sense of the context for what Dune really was about?
Yes. I'd say the "superheroes are bad" theme doesn't even come to its real fruition until God Emperor of Dune, especially as realized through the eyes of Duncan. But even in the context of Dune alone, I think you're missing the implications of Paul's ascension. In order to revenge himself on the Harkonnens and the Emperor, Paul had to ally himself with the Fremen. And to render the Freman united, effective allies, he had to make himself a religious figure. As a consequence, revealed in his prescient visions in Dune, Paul has unleashed a murderous Fremen-led jihad on the galaxy that will kill tens of billions.
Dune Messiah and Children of Dune certainly go more in depth into what is discussed in the article though. This quote from the article particularly brings them to mind:
This grows from my theory that superheroes are disastrous for humankind. Even if we find a real hero (whatever-or whoever-that may be), eventually fallible mortals take over the power structure that always comes into being around such a leader.
But if you did not enjoy Dune, I am doubtful you will enjoy the sequels.
Like others have said, Dune somewhat subverts the typical "hero's journey". Where in the template for this kind of story the reluctant kid grows up to be the Chosen One almost by chance, in Paul's case it's mostly engineered to be this way.
The Bene Gesserit were growing and expecting this kind of Chosen One, it just didn't happen exactly how they wanted it. The Fremen accepted Paul as their Chosen One precisely because the Bene Gesserit had a program of artificial religions previously implanted in Arrakis and other difficult planets.
Chance still played a role in Paul's story, though a smaller one than the usual. I think the careful engineering of the Prophecy that allows the protagonist to succeed is an important part of what makes Dune unique.
Also, the emphasis on politics, and the crossover between feudal and SF tropes.
I gathered so much about his journey throughout the book, but the problem with this approach, to me, is that he doesn't really grow as a character. Paul gains new abilities, but his tone is the same at the beginning as it is at the end. No character really grows, it seems, except Feyd Rautha, which is kind of silly.
> Also, the emphasis on politics, and the crossover between feudal and SF tropes.
I wish there was more of an emphasis on this. The whole story is painted against a great backdrop of this struggle between the different houses, and the emperor. This is repeatedly mentioned and some story points rely on it, yet, there is no explanation as to how it came to be and how the system actually works.
I also cannot help but see plot holes. For example, why does the emperor not take complete control of the spice production? Has nobody in the universe except for Paul figured out that whoever controls the spice, controls everything? That they can hold it hostage? Given, that everyone relies on the spice, why hasn't anyone but the Fremen figured out where it comes from? It seems that the spice has been a huge part of literally everything that the noble houses, the spacing guild, the Bene Gesserit, etc. do. Yet nobody bothered to look beyond the spice fields and actually figure out all the stuff that it turns out the Fremen already knew.
You have a point about Paul, though he arguably evolves in the following book.
The Emperor doesn't take control of spice production partly because of the Landsraad, which exists precisely to keep the ruling House in check, and partly because of the Spacing Guild, which is arguably the true power behind the scenes.
No House can truly do anything without the Spacing Guild because space travel is impossible without them. At the start of the Dune saga, the whole political universe depends on this equilibrium, which is strictly enforced. Navigators are, of course, aware of their dependence on the spice and of the importance of Arrakis.
The Fremen and what they represent is ignored because of racism. This is also a point of the book. Nobody wants to see what's in front of them. This is especially shown from the point of view of the Harkonnen, which only slowly begin to realize the parallels between the Fremen and the imperial Sardaukar.
> I also cannot help but see plot holes. For example, why does the emperor not take complete control of the spice production?
To expand on what the sibling poster said, the Emperor cannot take complete control of spice production - the Guild would never allow it. He has what he thinks is necessary and sufficient control. Remember that it was the Emperor who gave stewardship of the planet to the Atreides, in collaboration with his lackeys, the Harkonnens, and that the Emperor and his allies had amassed huge stockpiles of spice while planning to intentionally disrupt spice production and thereby make the Atreides unpopular.
He could not assume further control than he had for a variety of reasons. One reason is the ecology of Dune - remember that most of the Fremen were so adapted to the environment that neither the Harkonnens nor the Emperor apparently even realized most of them existed, because they considered huge swaths of the planet to be uninhabitable, and for good reason. Let alone the desert itself, remember the huge storms and the sandworms were pretty frequently destroying even massive industrial equipment and killing people daily. (The Fremen were also involved, but it seems that this was downplayed and often attributed to the environment.) The second reason is that the Guild has a very specific political agenda that principally involved their access to spice and keeping the extent of their dependency on it a secret.
The Guild was totally aware the power that someone who controlled the spice would have - that's why they went to great lengths to prevent anyone from gaining total control over spice production and export. As you see at the end of Dune, the Guild have a very limited political agenda, but in the end, they hold real power in the Dune universe. The Emperor and the Landsraad are helpless without the Guild, and the Guild knows it.
Additionally, remember that the Fremen were paying huge bribes to the Guild to keep certain secrets.
> The whole story is painted against a great backdrop of this struggle between the different houses, and the emperor.
The Landsraad is not exactly in conflict with the Emperor. The Landsraad is subordinate to the Emperor and part of his power structure in a way that say, the Guild or the Bene Gesserit are not. The Landsraad and the Emperor control CHOAM, the prime economic mover and shaker, together. What the Landsraad would fear, if it came to pass, is if the Emperor tried to consolidate his power by taking out the Houses one by one, which he does not try until Dune (in part because he fears the consolidation of the Landsraad power under the Atreides), and then only cautiously under the Harkonnen banner. The Landsraad are perfectly content to go along with the Emperor as long as they believe he's not going after them.
That's not really what the story is about, it's more about politics and how religions are fabricated,for the sake of politics.Paul is neither the muadib nor the kwisatz haderach.
I think the 2 immediate sequels are interesting,the books after them are unnecessary.
The July 1980 edition of Omni, in which the Herbert's article appeared, is available on archive.org in various formats [1]. The full collection is at [2] and was discussed a few years ago on HN [3].
I just finished re-reading the series last week, including the last 2 books by his son. Those last 2 weren't completely awful, but they certainly didn't live up to the standards set by the original author. The only point that I was truly disappointed with the writing was when I read the following words: "male bene gesserit".
There were plenty of other inconsistencies as well, but as when watching any good movie, you need to suspend reality (in this case Frank Herbert's reality) and allow the story to play out.
I don't think I have the stomach to read the prequels, but I'm sure I'll come back and re-read the series again and again. Very few authors take the time to create such immersive universes.
Tim O'Reilly made an interview with Frank Herbert on how he created his universe, and describes the huge effort that went into it. Worth to read. Unfortunately they don't print it anymore, but hey, at least it is available online.
Reading Herbert's thoughts on Dune and the all-too-human nature of superheroes reminded me of "The Bureau of Sabotage" (1) from two of his other books, The Dosadi Experiment and Whipping Star:
In Herbert's fiction, sometime in the far future, government becomes terrifyingly efficient. Red tape no longer exists: laws are conceived of, passed, funded, and executed within hours, rather than months. The bureaucratic machinery becomes a juggernaut, rolling over human concerns and welfare with terrible speed, jerking the universe of sentients one way, then another, threatening to destroy everything in a fit of spastic reactions. In short, the speed of government goes beyond sentient control ... Founded by the mysterious "Five Ears" of unknown species, BuSab began as a terrorist organization whose sole purpose was to frustrate the workings of government in order to give sentients a chance to reflect upon changes and deal with them. Having saved sentiency from its government, BuSab was officially recognized as a necessary check on the power of government. It provides a natural (and lucrative) outlet for society's regular crop of troublemakers, who must be countered by society's regular crop of "do-gooders".
FWIW, I find Dune and many other classics of sci-fi (extended to film, TV and videogames) so compelling because it's a solid story built on the foundation of a carefully imagined and visualized universe ... down to the political power structure. There are a few other universes worlds that also hold up, despite some poor sequels and side projects ... Urth, LOTR, Star Wars, Half-life, etc.
I have never understood why Frank Herbert isn't enshrined as the 20th century's best science fiction author, since that's exactly what he was.
He always gets overshadowed by Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, who are undoubtedly all very good. But Herbert's works have depth and timelessness that few other writers in any genre can match. The Dune series is genius, the ConSentiency series(only two novels and a short story or two, sadly) nearly reaches Dune's level, and there are portions of The Dosadi Experiment that exceed anything in Dune.
Jodorowsky did read Dune according to the documentarian:
"The truth is that he had not read it when he had the idea to make the film. At that point, someone had told him it was good. Hilarious. But once he embarked on his mission, he of course read it as he did the screenplay adaptation before anything. His film would have been remarkably loyal to the novel, of course with some of his own genius in the mix."
Not one mention of The Seven Pillars of Wisdom by TE Lawrence? I'm actually reading that book right now; so many parallels. It's a shame Herbert didn't mention Lawrence in this essay.
I re-read Frank's Dune books every decade and they still speak across a half century of time. In the 1960s pollution and over population were the environmental issues. But now others like global warming predominate. Plus there is a lot of Arabism in Dune and mid-East wars have been growing in the past 20 years.
Read all the Dune books through Mentats of Dune by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Loved them all! Favorite series ever-- love, politics, philosophy, technology, fantasy. Brilliant.
I grew up reading Dune, and then reread it when I was in University. Thanks for sharing this, especially liked how he likened the themes in the book to existing problems of that time.
Don't worry too much about the many sequels, they can get a bit too weird. The first book stands alone just fine.