> No, even charities and non-profits need to make money—they need to make a profit, or break even exactly— otherwise they will cease to exist.
This is the original comment in this chain that I was really wanting to address and build on. Charities and non-profits need to have some kind of input more than just existing, or else they probably won't achieve their goals. If the FSF stopped being able to host things and potentially sponsor free software and lobby for the goals of free software, if a scholarship foundation's grants exceeded their incomes for too long, if the tool collective stopped getting parts of fuel to run the forge, they'll eventually for all practical purposes cease to be. If the inputs fall below the outputs, there will eventually be a time where the outputs stop. This was my main point. Do you disagree?
> If you add up the value of the inputs in the form of food, housing, entertainment, travel, education, computers, and whatever else you think is necessary for optimal software development in a year
Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: all that stuff is beyond the basic needs. The fact you can work as a software developer is evidence of you having access to more than the basic needs for some period of time. You have computers. You have an education. You probably have an internet connection. You don't need computers to survive. You don't need much of an education to survive. You don't need an internet connection to survive. You don't need Linux to survive. You don't need GCC to survive. All of these things are massively above and beyond one's "basic needs". So if our standard is we'll just give people the basic needs, they won't be very good software developers.
I definitely agree, a software developer's labor will generate a massive ROI. I definitely agree, my employer isn't measuring my caloric expenditure and writing a paycheck based on that. Teaching a miner better mining strategies, equipping a miner with better mining tools, giving a miner better geologic analysis, etc will also massively increase a miner's ROI. But if I never had a computer, and I never had an internet connection, and I never had an education, I probably wouldn't be in software. If you just put an uneducated person in a mine without any tools or guidance, they won't be a very good miner. All of those things are above one's basic needs.
So arguing all we need to do is give people some "basic needs" and they'll magically create tons of extra value is a bit absurd. They need tools. They need education. These are all above and beyond the basic needs.
> This is the original comment in this chain that I was really wanting to address and build on. Charities and non-profits need to have some kind of input more than just existing, or else they probably won't achieve their goals. If the FSF stopped being able to host things and potentially sponsor free software and lobby for the goals of free software, if a scholarship foundation's grants exceeded their incomes for too long, if the tool collective stopped getting parts of fuel to run the forge, they'll eventually for all practical purposes cease to be. If the inputs fall below the outputs, there will eventually be a time where the outputs stop. This was my main point. Do you disagree?
Well, I'd have to wonder what units you're using that you think are relevant for all inputs and outputs. You might, for example, consider what units you'd measure "all of the inputs you think are necessary for software development" and whether that's an appropriate unit for measuring "software" in.
> Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: all that stuff is beyond the basic needs.
Agreed! I never disagreed, I merely misspoke initially.
But I've amended that error two posts ago and you're still ranting on about how I don't understand all of this is beyond basic needs. You're trying to argue with me on a point we agree on. Until you stop doing that, it's clear you aren't reading what I'm writing, so I'm not sure why I'd keep writing it.
This is the original comment in this chain that I was really wanting to address and build on. Charities and non-profits need to have some kind of input more than just existing, or else they probably won't achieve their goals. If the FSF stopped being able to host things and potentially sponsor free software and lobby for the goals of free software, if a scholarship foundation's grants exceeded their incomes for too long, if the tool collective stopped getting parts of fuel to run the forge, they'll eventually for all practical purposes cease to be. If the inputs fall below the outputs, there will eventually be a time where the outputs stop. This was my main point. Do you disagree?
> If you add up the value of the inputs in the form of food, housing, entertainment, travel, education, computers, and whatever else you think is necessary for optimal software development in a year
Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: all that stuff is beyond the basic needs. The fact you can work as a software developer is evidence of you having access to more than the basic needs for some period of time. You have computers. You have an education. You probably have an internet connection. You don't need computers to survive. You don't need much of an education to survive. You don't need an internet connection to survive. You don't need Linux to survive. You don't need GCC to survive. All of these things are massively above and beyond one's "basic needs". So if our standard is we'll just give people the basic needs, they won't be very good software developers.
I definitely agree, a software developer's labor will generate a massive ROI. I definitely agree, my employer isn't measuring my caloric expenditure and writing a paycheck based on that. Teaching a miner better mining strategies, equipping a miner with better mining tools, giving a miner better geologic analysis, etc will also massively increase a miner's ROI. But if I never had a computer, and I never had an internet connection, and I never had an education, I probably wouldn't be in software. If you just put an uneducated person in a mine without any tools or guidance, they won't be a very good miner. All of those things are above one's basic needs.
So arguing all we need to do is give people some "basic needs" and they'll magically create tons of extra value is a bit absurd. They need tools. They need education. These are all above and beyond the basic needs.