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> Because the distance to the singularity grows at the speed of light,

doesn't our universe expand at the same speed?



As the sibling poster implies, not only are there black hole horizons, but we are ourselves inside of a cosmological horizon. Objects outside the horizon are impossible to see, and objects approaching it from the inside will redshift and disappear from view the same way they do when entering a black hole from the outside.


This is a false horizon. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_on_a_rubber_rope.

At least theoretically we should be able to receive signals from arbitrarily far away no matter the expansion of the universe. They'll be redshifted like hell though, as you say.


Things are moving away from us at a speed proportional to their distance. The fastest objects are actually faster than the speed of light.


I thought nothing could move faster than light?


Special Relativity states that no two objects may pass each other faster than the speed of light. Space itself isn't bound by this restriction. To wit: no thing can move faster than the speed of light, but space is not a thing.

Space is dynamical. It can stretch and expand and even break, but it doesn't move. The result of this is a cosmological horizon that prevents these objects from communicating, because the distance between them is growing faster than light can cross it. This is the same reason you can't escape a black hole.


It kinda sounds like we're actually in a gigantic black hole...


It really does feel like the two concepts are related, but there are enough differences that you can't just say we're inside a black hole. For one thing, the inside of a cosmological horizon corresponds to the outside of a black hole. I do think the similarity is part of what drives so many physicists to study black holes and quantum gravity, though. Horizons are a consequence of dynamical spacetime, but a deeper theory is needed to see the universe and black holes as manifestations of some more primitive concept.


This is actually very similar to what I've heard an observer falling into a black hole would experience... as you fall in, space curves to bend all outward worldlines back to the singularity. You never experience the horizon itself even while passing it, but would see the horizon wrapping itself around you in all directions.


Astronomers in different galaxy clusters looking at the M87 black hole would agree within their observational abilities that there is a horizon localized deep within the visible matter of the galaxy. Astronomers will keep agreeing that into the far future.

Astronomers in different galaxy clusters will agree that each sees a set of cosmological horizons, but do not agree on where it is and what's inside it.

Schematically:

    th<--g1<--<--yh--Them<--->You-->th-->g2-->yh
The gt/lt arrows represent the metric expansion in one direction; Them and You are the two respective observers' galaxy clusters. G1 and g2 are two distant galaxy clusters. Yh and th are your and their horizon, respectively. G1 is inside their horizon but has crossed yours. G2 is inside your horizon but not inside theirs.

Every point in an expanding universe has its own set of cosmological horizons non-identical to its neighbouring points, and dramatically different from points at great distances in spacetime (that goes for great gaps in time at the same spacelike location, and great gaps in space at the same lookback time or scale factor).

For astrophysical black holes, a black hole horizon localizes around a particular clump of matter, and not around other nearby clumps of matter. Far from a super-dense clump of matter you will not find an astrophysical black hole horizon (barring primordial black holes, for which there is no evidence anyway).

Cosmological horizons focus on each infinitesimally small clump of matter, everywhere in the universe, even in deep extragalactic space where matter is extremely sparse. Indeed, even matter-free points have their own cosmological horizon, and we do have substantial evidence supporting that.

A theoretical black hole horizon arises in a family of solutions of the Einstein Field Equations, from exact ones like Schwarzschild or Kerr, to solutions that become those asymptotically (in the limit as a black hole formed by gravitational collapse ages, for example -- Schwarzschild and Kerr are eternal black holes that are never in an uncollapsed state).

A cosmological horizon arises in a different family of solutions of the Einstein Field Equations, from exact ones like the de Sitter vacuum or the expanding Robertson-Walker vacuum, to solutions that become those asymptotically (these are vacuum matter-free solutions, and one can get there with a solution with matter that dilutes away over time).

The two families of solutions are very different, although there is an overlap of solutions for black holes in expanding spacetimes, where there can be both a black hole horizon (or horizons) and a cosmological one (or more than one).

We can compare these different families of solutions most strikingly using the behaviour of test particles scattered through the spacetimes: near the BH event horizon particles may be entrained into stable circular orbits around the horizon of a theoretical black hole like Schwarzschild or Kerr, whereas this never happens around a cosmological horizon in a solution like de Sitter or expanding Robertson-Walker: the test particles all plunge right through the observer's horizon radially.

Once through the BH horizon a test particle will inevitably and very quickly by its own "wristwatch" collide with the gravitational singularity after passing through extremely curved spacetime. Our galaxy cluster has already passed through many cosmological horizons centred on distant galaxies who are now outside our horizon too. Neither our galaxy cluster nor the many distant ones have changed their essentially exclusive time-like trajectories, and there is no evidence we are soon going to end up colliding with a gravitational singularity. (Current evidence doesn't suggest we are going to end up facing a big rip either).

Now, in the cosmological model under time reversal galaxy clusters do tend to converge and naively collide and collapse into a singularity eventually. However, galaxies all plunge into it radially and matter does not get entrained into any sort of accretion disc or similar structure. (They disintegrate into clouds of gas and dust that heat up into the "un-recombination" surface of ionizing atoms (mostly hydrogen) which gets denser and hotter until neutrons and protons disintegrate, electroweak symmetries emerge, and so on, all at once. Black holes usually get to swallow clumps of matter from time to time, whereas the time-reversed big bang singularity gets everything landing on it all at once, rather than some clumps early, and some clumps earlier still).

Physically realistic models built on these theoretical systems are grossly different; the models are good for predicting future things in our sky, so we expect the astrophysical reality is different too.

The rough similarities tend not to survive real inspection. Different horizons are different in a bunch of ways that aren't overcome by the few ways in which they are somewhat similar (or similar under time-reversal).


>and even break

Spatial discontinuities? Can you tell us more, please?


How about another lecture by Leonard Susskind? I'm just repeating his ideas! The gist of it is that the connectivity of space is related to the patterns of entanglement between particles in the quantum foam. If you were to break that entanglement, you could disconnect two regions of space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9crggox5rbc


Nothing's moving. It's like if you ran a 100m but while you were running, they decided to make it a 200m.

If you speed up, you can finish the race in the same amount of time. Light always finishes the race in the same amount of time from each observer's perspective. It can always speed up because it's massless, but you have mass and there is a limit to how much you can speed up. According to general relativity, an observer outside of the racetrack won't see light change speed, nor will you. But both of you will perceive distortions of space and time to accommodate light's "change in speed" to make it look as if nothing's changed.

Back to the cosmological horizon... We don't see a big jump in the racetrack because the distance between 100m and 200m isn't too massive; likewise, gravity and other forces hold objects together even though space is expanding and pulling them apart.

But there is a certain distance where gravity and other forces can't keep things together. Where that 1000k becomes a 10000k. The pull from one galactic cluster to another is just too weak. Anything past this point is moving away from us. That's why only galaxies close to us aren't redshifting away. But any observer anywhere in the universe would observe that they are at the epicenter of an expansion where everything is moving away from them.


> It can always speed up because it's massless

I'd suggest clarifying this statement because it certainly gave me the wrong impression…


Light can always "speed up" to make up for the difference in distorted space time so that it is always the same speed relative to your inertial frame. Having zero mass (zero interaction with the Higgs Field, QCD binding energy, etc) is a requirement to be able to do this.


:D is the universe expanding, or revealing more of itself? if the universe is expanding at the speed of light, doesn't that imply that just light is reaching us more from further away places? sorry to be off topic but that comment gave me this brainfart.


The universe is revealing more of itself as light reaches us from farther away, but because the universe is both expanding and that expansion is accelerating, there is a maximum distance we will ever be able to see: the Hubble Distance. I don't think the universe is old enough for light to reach us from that far yet, which is why we can still see the cosmic microwave radiation, but give it a few trillion years, and we won't even be able to see other galaxies because they will recede from us, redshift, and disappear.


No, there's actually more space constantly being added to the fabric of spacetime. So if you take 1 cubic meter of space, eventually it will become 1.01 cubic meters, then 1.02, etc. This isn't noticeable at distances within the galaxy, but it is very noticeable when observing distant galaxies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space




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