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Reminder: Today is the deadline to tell USPTO to end software patents
77 points by cera on Sept 27, 2010 | hide | past | favorite | 39 comments
See the request from the Free Software Foundation:

http://www.fsf.org/news/uspto-bilski-guidance

Here are comments from a recent thread on HN:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1723904



Based on the previous discussion linked, I'm a little surprised and disappointed by the number of folks here at HN who think software patents aren't that big of a deal, or are somehow good for innovation.

I just assumed that anyone who had worked in software for any length of time was aware of the current minefield that is software development. Every field I've worked in (proxies and security, scientific computing, large-scale cluster computing, web service, web-based GUIs, virtualization) have had at least a few seriously dangerous and over-broad patents that loom over the whole field and make everyone a little nervous or forces workarounds or closing ones eyes and pretending to not know and hoping you don't get sued.

It is simply impossible to write non-trivial software without violating some patent or other. If you're lucky, it will be patents held by "good" companies that won't sue you.

The amount of harm done by software patents is vast, and the amount of good is pretty hard for me to spot.

Anyway, I've sent off my email in support of excluding software from patentability, though I have my doubts as to its effectiveness.


Send your email to: Bilski_Guidance@uspto.gov

The FSF's suggested text is:

Software patents hurt individuals by taking away our ability to control the devices that now exert such strong influence on our personal freedoms, including how we interact with each other. Now that computers are near-ubiquitous, it's easier than ever for an individual to create or modify software to perform the specific tasks they want done -- and more important than ever that they be able to do so. But a single software patent can put up an insurmountable, and unjustifiable, legal hurdle for many would-be developers.

The Supreme Court of the United States has never ruled in favor of the patentability of software. Their decision in Bilski v. Kappos further demonstrates that they expect the boundaries of patent eligibility to be drawn more narrowly than they commonly were at the case's outset. The primary point of the decision is that the machine-or-transformation test should not be the sole test for drawing those boundaries. The USPTO can, and should, exclude software from patent eligibility on other legal grounds: because software consists only of mathematics, which is not patentable, and the combination of such software with a general-purpose computer is obvious.


Don't forget to CC licensing@fsf.org, so the FSF gets a copy and the USPTO knows there's a large organized body opposing software patents.


The suggested text is nonsense. Software is no more "mathematics" than are circuit diagrams, chemistry nor books.


If you ask a mathematician, everything is or can be described by math. I'm inclined to agree when it comes to software. Software is just a domain-specific mathematical notation for expressing algorithms in a machine-parsable way.


There is Nothing more mathematical about assembly language than coding a book in ASCII - its a coincidence, not intrisic to the subject.


Tell this to Alan Turing or Alonzo Church.


Yes, and if you come up with a new theory of computer science, then run off to the patent office.

But if (like most of us) you write A program, then its a program, not an equation or a theorem or anything else mathematical.


I think you miss the point. The fundamental insights that both Alan Turing and Alonzo Church independently had was that a program is an algorithm (or, more precisely, a numerical representation of an algorithm), which is mathematical by definition.


And a lathe is an algorithm, and a cell, and ...


I've had this argument several times before, and frankly I'm not interested in having it again right now. If you want to understand, I suggest reading the Wikipedia page on algorithms for a start. If you don't, this is also fine by me.


> Software is no more "mathematics" than are circuit diagrams, chemistry nor books.

Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_isomorphism


Sure Some software corresponds to Some math in a contrived example. That is well-known.

How about a disk driver? a network protocol? A game where you shoot a bunny with a flamethrower?

Some Computer Scientists occasionally gain benefit from applying math to certain algorithmic software. Is that the only kind that is being patented?


The following is my letter:

Undoubtedly there will be many comments emphasizing the bad effects of software patents, and that for policy reasons they should not be accepted. While I agree with this argument, I see other fundamental problems with applying patents to software, and write to discourage their use.

I instead want to stress that software is not a machine, but instructions, an algorithmic, step-by-step, description of processes. This core nature of software means that even when the process being described by the software is patented, this should not hinder the distribution of the software. A patent application is itself much the same thing -- a description of the process to be covered. It would be utterly ludicrous to forbid the distribution of an approved patent application for violating the patent. The description is not the process itself, nor is it a machine for performing the process. The same really holds true programs. Imagine taking a patent application and annotating with details of a particular way of implementing the patent. At no point does it make sense to forbid the distribution.

It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to have an otherwise patentable invention be partially implemented in software. I must argue though that what violates the patent is the whole machine (including the software, to be sure), and not the software itself, nor the general purpose computer itself. Either should be free to be built, used, sold, and otherwise distributed. This is not much different from parts in an invention being illegal to combine in a way that violates the patent, while perfectly legal to have apart or combine in other ways.

I will also note that in practice, many software patents have been granted that seems obvious. Combining something with a general purpose computer should never have been considered non-obvious, nor should doing something with a computer network as an intermediary be considered non obvious. Computers were built to perform algorithmic processes. Selecting a particular algorithm may not be obvious, but the use of a computer to execute it certainly is obvious. Computer networks were built to carry general information; making that type of information more specific to a certain use does not make the use of a general network less obvious. Many machines are adapted to a specific used, and must be readapted to be used in a different, but similar circumstance. Computers and computer networks are different. They are general purpose machines where the general really does encompass all specifics.


There are some big companies out there with a lot of their on-the-books valuation existing in the form of software patents. If they suddenly have to mark that stuff down to zero, imagine the crash...


Only patent trolls would crash, which is almost entirely private equity. Let them crash. In fact, I'd argue that it would be a great good for the market in general to knock the wind out of the parasites who live off of software patent trolling.

Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, etc. companies that make money from legitimate sources would be barely effected at all (and many tech companies who have huge patent portfolios have spoken in favor of ending software patents or making them less broad). And, startups could breathe a sigh of relief and stop worrying about being the subject of extortion the day they turn a big enough profit to be a target of patent trolls.

Besides, this is about how the USPTO grants software patents. It's not about revoking them or abolishing existing patents, though lawsuits to break some of the more pernicious ones probably would follow.


This is simply not true. Regardless of how, say Microsoft, uses or doesn't use its patents, they account for a substantial percentage of its value on the books. If the accountants suddenly had to revalue them to $0, it would unquestionably have a big impact on the share price.


Regardless of how, say Microsoft, uses or doesn't use its patents, they account for a substantial percentage of its value on the books.

I'd need to see some evidence of this assertion. When I was spending a lot more time researching tech stocks than I do now (now I spend 0 time researching tech stocks), I never saw a patent portfolio as a significant portion of the value of the companies I was investing in. Revenue and growth is king in tech company stocks. Book value is pretty much considered a big goose egg in software companies because they tend to have so little of it compared to old blue chips that have factories, brick and mortar stores, or infrastructure that has real world value. I'd be absolutely stunned if marking down their entire patent portfolio had more than a 1% impact on their market value, because I suspect even less than 1% of their revenue comes from patents...and revenue and growth is how people value MSFT.


Should that be a consideration when deciding whether to abolish software patents? If nothing else, the USPTO can grandfather the existing patents in, but restrict the ability of their owners to use them aggressively.


Should it? I don't know. Will it? Absolutely.

And what does "aggressively" mean? Making a patent unenforceable will have the same effect as invalidating it.


Most big companies (fortunately) accumulate patents mainly for defensive purposes. If software patents go away, there will no longer be a threat to defend against.

So they'll be making the same money, with less legal risk. If the market is silly enough to crash in response to that, I'll hustle out to buy as many shares in the crashed companies as I can.


On the other hand, knowing that they're less likely to be sued for patent infringement is probably worth a lot more.


There were some folks who owned a lot of slaves back in the day, too. Not a good argument, by itself, sorry.


not really a fair comparison. Obviously in the case of slavery most people would believe that matters of economic stability play second fiddle to the overarching concerns of Justice and Morality. However, as evil as you may think software patents are, they are not on the same level.

The USPTO should consider economic ramifications of a decision to stop issuing software patents, or to invalidate patents. I'm not saying they should not go ahead and do it, but it would be irresponsible not to consider any potential negative effects.


"Obviously in the case of slavery most people would believe that matters of economic stability play second fiddle" -- It wasn't obvious when slavery was legal.


True, that was mostly certainly historical relativism on my part. Maybe in 100 years people will look back on patent lawsuits similarly... but i doubt it


Seriously? This is your argument? Comparing software patents to slavery trivializes the suffering and evils of slavery.


Perhaps independent developers feel like prisoners (slaves may be too strong a word) where the wardens are software patents. If you ask the FSF, non-Free software is unethical for "enslaving" the knowledge contained in the software (though I think that position goes a bit too far).


I would personally like the see the end of software patents, as I feel they are bad for the country, but I don't see that happening. Perhaps we should consider something else, like allowing software patents to continue, but limiting them to a far shorter duration (in recognition to the speed of software development)? Say four or five years?


The point of this campaign is that the Supreme Court has recently said, "Software patents go too far."

This is an opportunity to tell the USPTO that software patents are not sensible, as they are currently being granted. It is not about "ending software patents" per se, but making them harder to obtain...and now is the best possible time to say something about it, because the supreme court has said, "Yeah, this whole software patent thing probably doesn't exactly make sense."


I just wrote and emailed the following: http://www.jakevoytko.com/blog/2010/09/27/my-letter-to-the-u...

I was short on time, so it is longer than I hoped. However, I think it gets my core feelings across.



I wrote a custom letter echoing my own personal opinions pro-freedom and those of the FSF recommended text.


I won't send a letter to the USPTO, or Congress, or any other government entity for that matter, regarding patents. Instead I will amass a great deal of influence and wealth by purchasing and applying for and litigating on patents, and then I will use this wealth to pay for special interests groups that will fight on my behalf (and ensure that I can) continue to do so. Good Day!


You could save yourself a lot of time and money by sharing the costs of the defense.


Great idea! I'll be sure to implement this in my next venture.

Seriously though, does anyone really believe that writing a letter will get something done? Change in Washington, especially for esoteric topics like this, has a cost, and that cost is tribute paid to lobbyists.


...does anyone really believe that writing a letter will get something done?

Perhaps not, but a large enough flood of letters from actual software developers may slightly nudge USPTO policy for the better until someone lobbies Congress to force the USPTO to change.


I don't care much about software patents. If people sue me for violating some patent, I'll publish on bittorrent and move to Sweden or some free country!


Why drop everything and move to some other country that you consider better than here instead of taking a chance to improve the country you live in?




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