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I do a substantial amount of coding in Racket, including maintaining the Herbie numerical compiler (https://herbie.uwplse.org/) over the last decade.

Racket is great! The runtime is reasonably fast, and the standard library is exceptionally featureful, including, for example, a decent plotting library, an HTTP server, decent HTML and JSON support, several forms of multi-threading, and a quite good FFI, all of which Herbie uses extensively. I suppose the parentheses are a question of taste (I like them!) but a lot of the specific syntactic decisions, like the `for` and `match` macros, are quite nice.


Thank you for Herbie btw, it continues to be one of the most used tools in my personal projects (all 3D math and rendering)


What a neat tool, I had no idea such a thing existed!


the runtime is chez, right?


Yes, Racket is built on top of Chez (there's a legacy mode with its own runtime but that's not very important).


It's about chips with a large enough scale up domain. Larger domain allows for bigger model, which is what's driving this jump. You've got to get the chips, test them, tune kernels, then start a big pre train, mid & post-train, and only then do you actually get the model. So it takes time. Anthropic got there first partly because they use different hardware (TPU I think, maybe Trainium) which had larger scale ups earlier.


A lot of algorithmic improvement in AI is ultimately bottlenecked by compute. It is very easy to come up with ideas that could improve models! But to prove that they do, especially at scale, is expensive and takes a long time.


Making Luna, which was already very cheap and extremely capable, 5x cheaper is crazy. I use Sol at work but Luna at home, and while there's definitely a difference, it doesn't feel like night-and-day. After a year of ever-increasing prices it suddenly feels (between this, Kimi K3, GLM 5.2) that prices are falling again.


> Sol vs Luna

> it doesn't feel like night-and-day.

I see what you did there. :)


Good observation! Kudos


I pretty strongly disagree about comparing this to Kimi and GLM, 5.2 was a big price hike for Chinese models, and Kimi K3 was a big price hike to that. K3 was within spitting distance of OpenAI pricing (more expensive than short context Terra, less than long context). And that's after months of OpenAI/Anthropic prices going up.

Now we have an American lab drastically cutting a price, feels like this is the opposite of that trend.


is kimi that cheap? it's a very expensive model


It's cheaper currently on many of the inference providers.

Personally, I'm having surprisingly good results with DeepSeek 4 Pro at home, which is very good value for money: it's not as good as Claude / GPT 5.6 (I have Co-pilot license at work), but it's still really useful for code reviews, validating thoughts, and especially designing / writing unit tests for new (and old before refactoring) functionality.

And it's very cheap per task. (Flash is even cheaper, but I've had issues with that on more complex tasks where it starts forgetting things and arguing with itself "but wait, let me read the function again").


DeepSeek V4 Pro is ridiculously priced, especially when you take into account caching. According to the DeepSeek usage panel, 50M tokens have cost me $1.38. It's not the smartest and does like to overthink, but if you have well defined problems it's good for coding. Well... except all your data going to China. I just use it for personal projects.


Yup, last month I did ~150mil tokens on DeepSeek v4 Pro for just under $3


Out of interest, are you using the DeepSeek plan?

(I've been using it via OpenRouter and it's much more than that, but still cheap).


I'm not aware of a DeepSeek plan, but I am using the DeepSeek API directly if that's what you mean.


I tried out deepseek v4 pro via a couple providers from openrouter, and it's always getting 429s. Are you running it on your own hardware?


I wish!!

No, I'm using it via OpenRouter in pi.dev - I just used it 30 mins ago... Providers (automatically selected): StreamLake and Baidu Qianfan.


Works fine for me via opencode go.


I toggle back and forth between deepseek v 4 flash/pro on FireWorks.ai using OpenCode. Easy to toggle, I default to flash.


where are you seeing cheap Kimi? pricing I've seen is the same across the board (presumably due to licensing terms) and is in the Terra range.


Cheaper - not cheap!

Morph occasionally have lower prices than the standard rates, and:

https://telnyx.com/pricing/inference-api

Is one which is a bit cheaper... I haven't actually tried K3 myself...


Kimi K3 is fairly cheap per token but thinks like a madman with poor self esteem.


Its just a matter of time at this point.These companies are working day and night to capture the market.


depends on what you are doing. if you are doing verifiable tasks like fixing bugs then any model would do as long as you write the right verification.


For compiler work I found that Sol is noticably better than 5.5 (and I generally use OAI models because I like the Codex app), but Fable was still obviously better.


Better in what way? Does it follow the goals better, does the code produce have higher quality in a testable/maintainable sense or is it just closer to how you would usually program something?


OpenAI used to make Codex-specific models, but they stopped. What I've gathered from interviews and similar is that training two models isn't worth the (small) lift from having a coding-specific model. You're pre-training on everything anyway, and coding RL is reasonably useful for general-purpose models too.


Interesting. I'd have guessed there would be meaningful opex benefits to serving smaller models.


What I've heard is that much of the model "intelligence" is a commingled bucket: although you can specialize specific knowledge somewhat, it's hard to specialize advanced reasoning to specific domains because so much of reasoning is a generalized capability that is not unique to, say, coding.

It turns out coding has to do with a lot of the same reasoning needed in math or in legal analysis, even if the grammatical expression is different.

This is less true of lower intelligence tasks. Classification requires a lot less reasoning capacity and so can be much smaller and more specialized.


Documented here but yes it's an average, of something similar to but not exactly the same as relative error: https://herbie.uwplse.org/doc/latest/error.html

It's true that averages can be misleading but we encourage users to think about it instead as a percentage of inputs. In practice the error distribution is very bimodal, the two modes being "basically fine" (a few ulps of error) and "garbage" (usually 0 instead of some actual value)


Author here. The speed up is modeled throughput, though the model is relatively naive. It's possible to disable branches by turning off the regimes flag, see https://herbie.uwplse.org/doc/1.0/options.html


Nice!

What’s uwplse mean? I mixed up the letters and misread it as ulp-wise which works for the project, haha.


University of Washington Programming Languages and Software Engineering (research group).

I'm not at UW any more, I'm now at Utah, but some of the Herbie team is at UW and they provide the infrastructure


Author here. I've got a few papers about this problem (including one in submission), but it is very very hard to do, especially with acceptable overhead. The state of the art is maybe 100x overhead.


It is, there's a page in the documentation about how errors are defined. Let me also add: Herbie generally gives the most accurate option it found first, and then the other stuff might be useful for speed (0.5x is way faster than two square roots and a divide!) but it's not as accurate


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